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The article generated some interest on the dojo mailing list, warts and all which might be interesting to chew on. Here is a digest of thoughts, some of it is responding to each other so its not quite a linear progression

Alison Lane’s feedback
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Thanks for the contribution.... and please, yes, keep them coming! I am relieved to hear other people were as bewildered by the don't hold firmly enough that your centre is disturbed when nage moves instruction, especially after years of practicing exactly that. So this discussion is doing me good.


Aran Bright’s feedback
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On the point of not taking uke's center, this was a point of much discussion on Friday night. It was interesting to note Sensei taught the same thing with shihonage at kotai level. Many people pointed out that by not taking uke's centre, uke can hit nage. This is true, but Sensei specifically stopped class and explained that kotai was just for nage to learn footwork and asked us "please do not mistake".

I can only assume this means that he doesn't want us to over complicate kotai and it is just step one?? Maybe at juntai level we can focus on taking uke's center??

Based on Paul's questions this prompts another question in my mind. In aikido Yuishinkai are we studying fighting or are we studying harmony? If we are studying fighting then including resistance, groundwork, striking, modern weapons, varying training environments should be included in aikido. If aikido is studying harmony then perhaps training is optimal by removing elements of fighting and discord and just focusing what makes Aiki possible in the easiest and simplest way?

But what if aikido is studying harmony in fighting, what then?

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I do have to wonder if Maruyama Sensei does the same thing in his dojo? Sometimes hold strong, sometime soft. We have all seen Sensei ask his uke's to hold strong whilst demonstrating. Maybe he is just asking us to hold soft for basic practice, but also practice resistance on other occasions just like we did at the seminar??


Daniel James feedback
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Great discussion and enjoying very much, critical thinking and mindful practice so important to progress and as usual maruyama sensei doesn't disappoint with a kick start, the danger is it becomes a new dogma for dojo to blindly follow and miss the point entirely.

last night we worked on tenkan and appreciate very might what came back from the bodies and minds of the dojo - i felt it crystallised it for me more

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I think whenever Sensei comes to Australia to teach he focuses on something particular and in a particular way to get a particular point across to advance the dissemination of his ideas and to correct something. The challenge then is we have to decide is this the only way to practice or was he just making a point to support the progression of ideas throughout the seminar. Often we choose wrongly and obsess over the point for a whole year and then with a sigh sensei has to correct that point the following year through exaggeration back the other way xand thus we might never get it unless we think carefully about it

Sometimes I learn something at the seminar in Australia and then when I practice in his dojo in japan I find he's not necessarily doing it there and do a double take. One simple example is how in last years seminar in the toitsu taiso for the split leg stretches he showed once how you can check which side is the tightest, then stretch the other side 5 times through rotation and then check again and its not so tight. its a nice application of soutai (now called shindou) but he's not doing that all the time like in this years seminar - but nearly every dojo obsessed over it (while still not doing moon shadow lizard legs properly i might add)

But back to tenkan, i think its a pedagogy for the seminar and I wonder if its to correct some behaviours e.g. if there is a problem with muscling nages that aren't doing aiki, for resistive ukes and also floppy unconnected ukes that sensei is trying to find a middle ground for? trying to find a way to develop them so that we can get from kotai to kutai.

I think the role of connected uke is very important, but given the level of practice at the seminar (e.g. looking at participants, many of whom have been practicing a while and should know better the uke-nage responsibility but don't) maybe he has to go back to basics and rebuild before that connection can evolve and then can deal with or introduce uke's power(such as the daito ryu focus of previous seminars)

re moon shadow, its purpose is to break ma-ai and so if ma-ai already broken then its not needed so much maybe *rant alert* then again take a look around any dojo, nearly everyone steps in on the moon shadow step (rather than it being a shadow of a moon with no weight or stepping in of body) so perhaps he simply despairs and has let it go, and those that choose not to see it relevance miss out. I remember spending what seemed like months at my previous dojo drilling incessantly on moon shadow, doing the ki tests from behind to show that you simply cannot step in with weight on the leg, the end result…absolutely nothing, nobody changed and the seniors and instructors were the worst - and setting an example. I challenge anyone anywhere to show me a dojo where most are doing the moon shadow step properly - i'll bet no-one takes me up on the challenge either because it doesn't happen, now i hear its been dropped from the happo waza in dojo because it too hard. Next class hide up the back and watch please tell me it was my bad teaching and the dojo is lucky I am not there anymore *rant off*

On what aikido is, I think the kata of aikido is the preparation to do aikido but not aikido. kata is the predominate stopping point of most aikido practitioners and dojo because going beyond is difficult and you can't be spoon fed it thus its not appealing. Dissecting kata through weapons, bunkai, resistance training, no resistance training(like at the seminar), syllabus (ours and others) are what ultimately allow us to understand what aikido is and allow us to do aikido i think.


Chris Moeseneder’s reflection, from an experience in his past
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One day a new student, let’s call him “Brad”, came to his second class. Brad was not large but stocky and very strong - maybe the result of a combination of physically intensive job and previous martial art experience of a more belligerent denomination. The sensei (who has been a great mentor to me) chose the new student as uke for a demonstration of tenkan. Brad took sensei’s wrist as firmly as he could and it was clear that he now wanted to know what this Aikido was all about … and whether the teacher would succeed in his technique if Brad just held on strong enough. You could feel the other students holding their breath and Brad’s mate (also on his second class) yelled encouragement by telling him to hold on tighter. For a few seconds both stood static - sensei with his presented wrist and Brad with his challenging grip - as anticipation rose. Sensei made no move as Brad grew restless. The row of observant students watched intensely and their expectation of some great sweeping movement was tangible. Brad still stood in anticipation of enlightenment when sensei calmly said “There is no attack.” and quietly finished with his demonstration. The lesson was unfortunately (?) lost on Brad and his mate since they were not seen again. For those of us who have stuck around it taught us that there is Aikido on many levels.


Paul Crawleys feedback
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Hey all, nice to see the conversation. Goes to show the seminars are much more than just the mat time and the sensei.

Do you think then if there is no aikido untill ryutai, firm holding or resistance training at kotai is outside aikido's scope, as would be grappling for example? I feel fine about not going into the "what ifs" with ground wrestling as at some point we're not really doing aikido but "what if" uke does get strong grip? Would we then need to look outside of aikido? I guess for various reasons we have things that are included and excluded in the art and "aiki" implies movement, so would it follow that if it stops moving with firm pressure we just "don't go there"?

For what it's worth, the Aus Mex take away near the Byron roundabout is the best Mexican I've ever had. I have never been to Mexico but I hear there's is quite good too.

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"In summary, all of these training methods have value as long as we train the method in a way that promotes achieving the intended learning outcome."

I think that's the thing, it comes back to intent. What I got from Chris's story was not that holding strongly was the problem but the intent behind the hold was. In that scenario it was intended to block, embassas, challenge etc. without giving any energy to work with. You can still give a positive, curious, energetic attack with a strong grip just as you can give blocking or challenging attack with a light grip. The intent behind the grip is fundamental.

However, just as I'm writting this, and I do genuinely beleive what I wrote, I feel like I've just talked my way around having to adjust my training to how sensei has asked. I wonder if I/we do this in some way every seminar.


Gabrielle Paynters’s feedback
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Thanks everyone. I missed the first session and got a lot from your comments.

I liked Maruyama Sensei's description of kotai and juntai and being the like "foundation of a building" - aka the civil earthworks and laying the concrete foundations before the structural and mechanic construction gets underway.

I too am bewildered by the idea of not allowing your centre to be taken at these levels but now that I think about it, I can remember many occasions where Maryuama Sensei has pulled up an uke for bending whilst trying to maintain full-palm contact on nage's wrist during tenkan kokyunage at kotai or juntai levels. I'm starting to see something in it. Assuming uke's role is to follow closely and give energy to the attack, I've often found myself feeling very connected at the wrist grab, followed by the tenkan, and then a run around in a circle where I can follow nage around cooperatively like a lame pony chasing a carrot at best, but hardly contributing to the energy of the attack. Whether or not staying upright and maintaining your centre at this point means you're providing more energy is questionable, however you're giving nage the opportunity to learn to lead a (potentially) unified person, and to practise taking their centre with the drop in the final movements. You still following me? At the very least I think it would be easier to encourage beginners not to "drag at the bridle" and continue momentum when they are not awkwardly bent forward and to the side for the aim of never letting go - why would you go for the carrot anyway when you've already got it clamped firmly in your huge horsey jaws?

On another note, a minor light bulb moment for me this seminar was the emphasis on starting lizard legs when you feel the intent of the attack. Was it just me or did anyone else get the impression that moon shadow is out and going straight into lizard legs is in this season? Anyway, I found it was a very easy, natural way to have good timing on entries.

Wish I was training with you guys at the republic tonight. Alas, I have skirting to paint.


Evan Haklar’s Feedback
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And yet I have read and heard others describe Tai No Henka as the foundational element of all Aikido, full stop. Which makes sense in a purely literal way... henka translates to something like change or vary, so indeed I would agree that "Tai No Henka" as "Changing Body" or "Varying Form" or some such describes the essence of Aikido. Form with no form. "There is only Irimi Nage," which I think was said by O'Sensei. Flow as water. I could wax on...

And then ironically the concept and practice of Aikido as an art with no form, or one in which form "takes form" in the moment as blending and projecting happen in an instant with no anticipation or suggestion, requires such clarity and such balance that it seems quite beyond the reach of a novice student of the art. A foundational element, it seems, that you cannot grasp until you are well advaned in the art...

In reading more about Tai no Henka I found a demo video of what seems to be a style of Aikido called Shudokan which I have not heard of, but of which I'm sure some of you are aware. The way in which the waza in the video are performed are in such stark contrast to the my experience with Aikido Yuishinkai. "Relaxed" is not the word that comes to mind... Aggressive, maybe. However they used stances which I am intimitely familiar with from my Shotokan days. "Every river has a name..."

But It made me think further again about the discussion on Tenkan and hand grip. Without disturbing uke's centre... I am so having a hard time understanding the footwork! In my mind I am trying to understand how I can realise the correct position without doing so, how I can keep the line, how I can blend with uke's "pseudo-ki" (not to be confused with sudoku) as there could be no extension without a committment from uke. I'm quite lost, but that's because I wasn't at the seminar!!!! So I have no one to blame but myself.

And my last thought was... soft grip, strong grip... they should be one and the same. One of the best lessons I have learned from Danny Sensei is, when in doubt, take it back to the sword. Hold too soft and there is no control, hold too strong and there is no Ki. And your hands get bloody tired. From relaxation comes strength. This is the lesson I struggled with most when beginning Aikido, and its probably still the one that sneaks up on me more often than any other.

Andrew Sunter’s feedback
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My aiki world was immobilised for about half an hour on Fri morning when Sensei insisted it was not about taking uke's centre in tenkan at kotai level. The inner turmoil was quieted when Sensei explained "this is not arts, this is basic".

What I gleaned from that class is:
a) it's not actually aikido until ryutai: kotai and juntai are no more than predetermined paired practice kata
b) it's true, there is no reason for uke to follow in kotai except a) above (ie, that's what we're practising in kotai)
c) at ryutai, we don't let uke get a firm hold (so no need to practise a strong grip in kotai)
d) at ryutai, uke follows naturally because that is the point of attacking (no attack, no technique). Sensei characterised this as the horse chasing the carrot. At kotai and juntai we take turns practising being both the carrot and the horse

That's all i have time for right now. I do have some other thoughts about how different ways to train tenkan have equal value and how i plan to integrate this into training.

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My plan is to distinguish strongly in my ongoing training between tenkan waza for kotai and juntai (which obviously has enormous value in achieving the stated learning objective of progression to ryutai and beyond) and the "old" (?) tenkan waza fellow threaders would not like to see disappear.

I'm sure I'll continue to train "full contact" tai no henka (calling it that for disambiguation) because of the learning objectives alluded to by other posters:
a) nage gets to identify and eliminate points of conflict through direct feedback from uke (and develop connection and sensitivity)
b) uke gets to practise "holding with curiousity" (thank you Denis Burke Sensei) to develop connection and sensitivity, explore gaps etc etc

I also think there is value in uke just cranking it, as long as the resistance is intended to give nage more to work with rather than just egoic competition.

In summary, all of these training methods have value as long as we train the method in a way that promotes achieving the intended learning outcome.

...

Aran and Paul make good points. Can I hazard a guess that tai no henko / tai na henko / tai no henka (I'm told all are ok) has no part in the practice and performance of Aikido Yuishinkai syllabus as such. On the other hand, our art is absolutely informed by its roots in Daitoryu and Shinkageryu, for example. Maruyama Sensei has actively encouraged exploration of both those arts as well as a return to the teachings of O-sensei.

In that sense I think we can view tai no henko as a valid part of training within an AY dojo, but as a subsidiary practice to support the performance of our school's kata.